A chat with Nigel

A chat with Nigel Murphy from the WCA July 08 newsletter.

Very interesting ! We are all so grateful to Nigel.

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A Chat With Nigel Murphy
Nigel Murphy has been an active part of the Chinese community,
especially here in Wellington, for such a long time
now that he has become part of our "scenery." Indeed, his
contribution to the issues facing Chinese New Zealanders
stands well above most of us who are actually Chinese ourselves.
I was intrigued as to why a blue-eyed Irishman has a
lifelong dedication to the Chinese community. So I asked
him.
Christine: You've said that you are not Irish. What are
you? How do you see yourself? What sort of
ethnic identity do you have?
Nigel: I'm white, I guess. Bog standard Pakeha New Zealander.
Mainstream. Most of my ancestors came
from England but three ancestors came from Ireland,
and a great-great grandfather gave me the
Irish name. I prefer the idea of being Irish rather
than English, but I'm not Irish. You can only be
Irish if you're born and raised in Ireland. Apart
from that, you can only be of Irish descent.
Christine: But I was born and raised here. Am I Chinese
or of Chinese descent?
Nigel: According to the mainstream, you're Chinese of
course. Indian New Zealanders are Indian. That's
the interesting thing. I am of English, Irish, French
and German descent but I'm not considered English,
Irish, French or German - I'm considered to be a
New Zealander. According to the white mainstream,
ethnicity is what other people have. White people
are not "ethnic". My highlighting my Irish-ness is a
means of me distancing myself from that aspect of
the white mainstream I don't feel a part of.
Christine: So how did you end up so deeply involved
with Chinese?
Nigel: It began when I was ten. My Dad is a person who is
curious about things, including Chinese things. He
went to Shanghai immediately after the War and he
brought back art works and Chinese books and an
abacus. I picked up on his Chinese things. And I
hadn't even met a Chinese person yet. I was just
attracted to Chinese things. Years later meeting the
Chun family gave me the opportunity to enter the
local community.
Christine: When I first met you, you were more involved
with community offices than most of us had
been - secretary of the WCA, chair of the Chinese
Language School. Can you explain that?
Especially when so many of my generation
don't have anything at all to do with communityactivities.
Nigel: Well, I think it's a pity in general that people aren't
as involved in their communities as they used to
be. But in my case, outsiders are often more committed
to the community. I like Chinese culture food,
people, language. Learning about Chinese
culture and the history of the Chinese community
in New Zealand has given me so much that community
service is a way of giving back.
Christine: When I came back into community activity, I
heard that you were the "guardian of our Chinese
treasures at the National Library."
Nigel: Yes. That would be true. That was something I felt
that I could do for the community. It wasn't part of
my regular duties; it was a self-imposed task. I actively
sought stuff out as I saw there was a huge
lack of material on Chinese New Zealand history in
public institutions and especially in the National
Library. There was on-going litigation about
whether I was right to do that or whether I had the
right to do that. I had this self-appointed task of collecting
Chinese stuff to put in the Library and people
were asking who gave you the mandate to do
that? Naturally you ask yourself am I doing the right
thing? Should I be doing this at all? But I've just
gone ahead and done it anyway. But over the 20-30
years of doing it, I've asked myself who am I as a
white person to be doing this? Shouldn't it stay
within the community? It may not be perfect having
the archives of the Chinese community held in a
non-Chinese institution, but at the least the Chinese
collection is safe in the National Library.
Christine: I don't think too many of us know that you
have recently changed jobs and become an historian
at the Waitangi Tribunal? Will we see a
lessening of your interest in things Chinese?
Nigel: No, not at all. I took the Tribunal job because I
wanted to further my career, increase my history
skills and because I have a social conscience. I also
wanted to do something different. At the Tribunal,
I am engaged with the issues but not with the people
at grass roots level.
Christine: We look to you to tell us what we were about.
What has been your greatest achievement in
being part of our community?
Nigel: The Poll Tax Apology is probably the greatest
thing because that's history being able to do something
for people now.
Christine: And making history yourself.
Nigel: That was empowering. It did empower people. I
see my job with the community now as making
myself redundant, because Chinese people should
look after their own affairs, including preserving
and telling their own history. I got into it because I

was fascinated by it, it made me feel alive, - I fell
in love with it basically, but it is your history and
your story.
Christine: Which of your publications are you most
proud of?
Nigel: Probably Aliens at my Table, which I did with Manying
[Ip]. That book tried to get white New Zealanders
to look in the mirror, to ask why do white
New Zealanders have a continuing problem with
Chinese. As part of helping with the poll tax apology
and writing the Aliens book I realized that if
you're a white guy like me looking at the Chinese
community from the outside, eventually you'll
wind up looking at yourself. That's my journey. By
looking at the history of the Chinese in New Zealand,
I ended up looking at the history of white
people in New Zealand. One result of that journey
was I needed to answer the question 'Why is there
a history of racism in this country? What does that
say about white New Zealanders? Is race and racism
an integral part of who we are as a people?'
Christine: There was some strong opposition to the Poll
Tax Apology even from within the Chinese
community.
Nigel: Yes, well that's another whole question in itself
isn't it? One thing that gets me is the privilege
thing and why white people think they can get
away with anything.
Christine: Do you think they really can? Do they think
that on an individual basis?
Nigel: No, because that's the nature of privilege. You don't
even realize you have privilege. But apologizing is
a way for white New Zealanders to acknowledge
that they abused their privilege. Another thing,
probably more from the Chinese side, was the criticism
that the Poll Tax Apology looked on the negative
side of things, and not the positive. That's true,
there's more to Chinese New Zealand history than
racism.
Christine: The early settler community is now a
"minority within a minority". The new Chinese
here are in bigger numbers. Do you think
that the old settler community is in danger of
becoming extinct?
Nigel: No, no. That's one thing I saw with the apology.
A lot of people had never even thought about their
own community and personal identity. Suddenly
they have a sense of identity and a pride in it. In
the 1950s and 60s, everyone had to be assimilated
- even Maori and all other non-Anglo New
Zealanders. This made some people really bitter
about being made to feel bad about who they were.
But the apology signalled an end to that, so the old
settler Chinese identity is stronger now than it's
ever been.
Christine: Have you ever experienced any reverse racism
from the Chinese community?
Nigel: No
Christine: Exclusion then.
Nigel: Oh yes of course. The Chinese community is like a
family. I perfectly understand that. I am a selftermed
dOT see gwai loh, a nosey white man. I
even put it on a business card once. Of course
there are places I'll be excluded. This is a natural
suspicion of an outsider coming into private space.
But this is not racism. Racism is about power and
exclusion from power. And the biggest racist institution
is white privilege. But I've understood that
completely. Why is that white man corning in and
looking at us? That's not racism, that's just a normal
reaction. I don't buy the reverse racism thing.
Christine: So what of the future?
Nigel: Well, I just want to lend a hand where I can. I'm
working on the history of the Chinese market gardening,
with Lily Lee and Ruth Lum - for the
Growers' Federation. We hope it will be finished
about the end of next year. And I hope I can continue
to be useful to the Chinese community in
whatever way I can.

Christine Chan-Hyams